We’re Not Gonna Take It!

This morning I did a random on my second dk… We got Heroic-Nexus… and a bear tank who decided we were going to do [Chaos Theory], which while not a hard achievement – one that’s relatively easy to screw up if you have one group member not listening, etc… he was talking down to us the whole run, and when we got to the boss, said “If one of you decides to be funny or cute and kills one of the rifts, I’m dropping immediately, midpull”. [Btw, this completely nixed my desire to help with the achievement].

So I did what I thought was logical… I initiated a vote-kick on the tank. And it passed immediately. Apparently no one else in the group was particularly thrilled with him telling everyone how to dps/heal, or going off on the hunter when the hunter got turned around and pulled an extra group [annoying, yes… but stuff happens].

The group debated what to do while we were sitting in queue… could the pally healer go tank and us queue for a healer? But not a minute later, we got a new tank… a dk tank who was excellent 🙂 And we finished the instance without incident.

Tanks, I give you the benefit of the doubt in most cases. I believe a lot of our grumpiness is because of the unnecessary abuse we suffer in the LFD… Skipping optional bosses without asking… being curt… these I can easily forgive and most tanks are appeased by kindness to do more bosses etc… but seriously, there are lines we should never cross.

DPS and Healers… please treat your tanks well and give them a benefit of the doubt or two… Instead of going “WTF TANK”, why not ask to do optional bosses if they’re obviously skipping them? Throttle back on your dps/threat, employ more use of threat drops and threat redirection. Tanks are tired of the abuse and we’re not going to take it. And if you get abusive tanks, I encourage you not to take it either – kick them. You can survive an extra five minutes [at least level 80s can :P].

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Author: Askevar

Raid leader and Tank. Also is an altoholic

32 thoughts on “We’re Not Gonna Take It!”

  1. The general attitude in HCs at the moment is pretty horrible. If they’re not disrespecting the tank the tank is disrespecting the group. I really wish people could just .. be nice. It may sound naive, but I really wish people would just learn how to behave around others.

    Maybe we need to send them all to some sort of behaviour class boot camp.

  2. This sort of thing is why I only tank when I’m with at least one friend, preferably more. I think people might be surprised as to what extent the tank shortage is artificial. That is, people like me who have at least one tank but won’t run with random groups because of the tendency to receive abuse. Just the other day I was running a random as a healer with a friend’s fresh 80 tank and one of the pugged dps was complaining loudly and frequently about how long the instance was taking (it was Nexus, and took less than 20 minutes start to finish).
    Similarly, people’s comments always make me feel like I’m tanking slower than I should. However, even as a fresh 80 I’m efficient enough that I’ve picked up a couple speed achievements, like Make it Count in Oculus and Culling of Time in CoS, not that anybody noticed or appreciated it, mostly comments are “come on” or “let’s get going” every time there is the slightest pause in action. I don’t think letting the poor mage have 8 seconds to Evocate is going to kill anyone and having been on the other side of those robes, I know how frustrating a speedy run can be for under-geared mana-users so I like to let the dps have some mana. (After all, they’re here to play the dungeon, too, not just watch.) I mean, really, what’s the rush?

    1. I have 4 toons with ICC viable tanking specs. If they queue in randoms [which they don’t often], they go as dps.

      I have another dk whom I might be willing to build a tanking spec on were it not for the tank abuse that is so rampant nowadays.

      That’s five potential tanks out of the dungeon finder.

      My hubby has three tanks of the same caliber [2 pallies and a dk] that hardly ever hit dungeon finder. He’s fine with going as a tank if he goes, but he only runs with guildies nowadays. He’s also got a warrior that he’s leveling that he’s refusing to tank on because of the stupidity as well as a second dk.

      That’s a total of 10 potential tanks taken out of the dungeon finder just between he and I.

      Ironically, main spec tanks are more patient queuing as dps than dps are.

  3. I’ve never had a tank nor been tempted to tank, but from the healers perspective, it’s nice when the group (specially the tank) gives you time to recover mana after every few mobs or after a particularly hard fight. Whilst I was working on Endy 2.0, I can’t tell you how tempted I was to make a macro that said something like “Guys, I need mana to heal you, so if you don’t give me a chance to drink every now and then, you’ll die and I’m not going to be held responsible.”

    I have a deep appreciation for tanks who wait while I drink, or ones who ask, “Healer, mana ok?” It’s nice when the tank is aware I need mana to do my thing.

    I really do feel a blog post coming on, about a few things I’ve noticed over time about LFD groups. The lack of patience for mistakes and wipes. One wipe and people start to bail. And the need to rush. It’s like people think they need to speed through the instance for…some reason I don’t quite know. I had a tank the other day (and at least she warned us) practically run through UP, grabbing multiple mobs, not giving DPS a chance to stop and pewpew or stabstab things. Now, she did slow down a bit after I said “Lil too fast there”, but what’s the rush people? And the judgement on others playstyle/spec/gear. It’s a PuG, you don’t know that person or their circumstances. They may have a very valid reason for having crap gear..maybe it’s their first toon. Bah, I’m veering off topic here.

    In any case, I think you give sound (and common sense, but many people seem to lack it) advice. I give people the benefit of the doubt and hope they do for me too. As a healer, typically, I let the tank set the pace and the only time I’d comment on it is if they’re going waaaay too fast (as I did in UP) or if they’re attacking a mob once every 5 minutes or something.

    1. I got in a regular PoS run this morning on Askevar 2.0. The tank was a druid in feral spec and resto gear because they had nothing better. They were crit capped but that was it. They knew how to tank just didn’t have the gear or threat. Even if I gave them time before going in, I would pull threat in 2 swings.

      I went unholy presence… still just as bad a problem…

      I started taking off gear and finally got to a point where my dps was 2-3k and my threat was no higher than 75%.

      Was it a bit annoying? Sure. But it was kinda fun running around with bare feet in a pink shirt 😛 [for any major aoe damage fights, I threw gear back on to mitigate the damage for the healer and just… hit once and stopped constantly].

      Could I have gotten fussy at the tank? Yeah. Did I need to? No. As long as I tempered my threat, they were doing just fine.

    2. Sometimes, on my tank, if I identified the group as being decently or over geared for a heroic, I would try to chain pull or pull multiple groups just to make it interesting for myself. My tank was ICC geared, so it was hard to make a heroic interesting for myself if I went at the original pace of the dungeon.

    3. people always like it when i ask about speedruns etc

      i tend to rush through a bit on my bear – but i ask first
      and i dont really do mana breaks – but innervate/bear/enrage goes down well 🙂

  4. I think the exact same idea should be for tanks and dps to respect healers as well. . . .

    rarely in random runs do I see the tank ask the healer if it would be okay to chain or multi-pull at the beginning of the instance. It’s just assumed that the healer will keep everyone up. When a massive pull fails the healer usually is the first to be blamed and the first to get the boot. Everyone needs to respect all members to make it work well. Instead of charging in, just do a few pulls and watch how the group works ( threat heals and damage done) and make the decisions form there.

    And by the way it’s a 5 man instance – optional bosses and routes through the instance should be a group decision not just the tank or dominate dps’er! Healers are players too. . not just baggage that has to be in the group. We like to have our input and requests listened to as well.

    It all comes down to one thing. . if you are going to run random instances. . KNOW YOUR JOB and do it.. . don’t whine about others!

    1. My criteria for pulling is this: If the healer have more than 75% of mana, I will continue to pull the next sets of mob.

  5. I have 3 tanking toons I use, and I do generally perfer to tank these days because it’s less hassle than a) getting eyestrain from staring at a DPS meter, and b) better than waiting 20 minuites in the queue for an instance.
    Usually people are either neutral or positive toward my tanking (which does lean towards the quick side) but you’ll sometimes get instances where the abuse is ridiculous. Had several in a row on my druid, and I just threw up my hands and said ‘I’m speccing resto’.
    My druid was 4k gearscore in his tanking set, so yeah he had trouble holding agro against 6k gs DPSers. If I asked people to wait 2 seconds for a couple of swipes, the abuse would start. ‘Fail tank’ gets thrown around. Guys, when you crit the mobs for 10k before I even reach them, an 800 swipe isn’t going to do anything, bonus threat or no. I would ahve thought that was obvious, but it seems to be a rare DPSer who cares these days. I just about had to insert regular taunts into my normal rotation with some groups.
    I actually think a lot of the problem comes from the prevalence of damage meters now – the competition among DPS is getting so heated that they don’t feel they can afford to wait the literally 0.5 seconds it takes to see the tank take initial agro. If it looks like the tank is moving, let loose the nukes!!
    Anyhow, I’m sticking with resto until I can get some higher tanking gear (which I sure as hell shouldn’t need!), and DPS has nothing but themselves to thank for that.

  6. If DPS gave tanks any sort of respect, WoW would be some sort of Utopian paradise. DPS are dumb, arrogant, impatient, childish, stubborn, and I don’t understand how anyone can continue to play a tank when you have to deal with people like this every time you run a random dungeon. I’ve tried tanking on 3 different characters and it’s definitely worse at lvl 80, but stupidity is everywhere.

    “*Just because content is old does not mean you can ignore fight mechanics.” I’m quoting you because this statement is just too true.

    1. “DPS are dumb, arrogant, impatient, childish, stubborn”

      dude, generalizations like this do not help the state of play. I’m a dps. i’m very good. the guild i’m in (Nova on Quel’Dorei) is 8/12 Heroic ICC25. I know what i’m doing. Been playing since ’07. I know how to play nice, to guard the healer, to MD to the tank whenever it’s up, to accept and deliver at the pace the tank/healer choose to set. Etc.

      That said, I also have an 80 prot warrior in mostly TOC10 gear with some 10ICC bits tossed in. It takes me longer to work up the energy and resolve to actually queue for a random than it does to get into a dungeon.

      I’ve been called every fail tank euphemism in the game and if half the energy spent on invective was spent on finessing the teamwork side of the game, we’d all be super-pro.

      All that said, i do now and then happen to group with outstanding players that display healthy respect for ALL roles (yes, including DPS) and these groups make WoW great. But they are rare, more’s the pity.

      1. I’m a DPS, too. My main character is an Elemental Shaman and I can top DPS meters in ICC10 easily. Still doesn’t change the fact that 90% of DPS that queue through the Dungeon Finder are idiots. It’s become a running joke that you can always count on one DPS being AFK to even accept the invite from the Dungeon Finder. That already speaks to their intelligence.

        The only reason I went Resto on my Shaman as long as I did was for faster queues, but I always wanted to switch back to DPS halfway through the run because the DPS was so low that even combined their was less than my Elemental DPS.

  7. Yeah I understand the frustration tanks can go through, I’ve tried a while back to learn protadin, but the abuse turned me away….

    In result, learned holyadin in OS, and usually go retadin in HCs now. Usually I watch my aggro, but on occasions I pull, and all I do is stop attack once Omen warns me till aggro is taken off or some other DPS gets it!

    Then using a macro for the assist command and keybinding is useful, whilst dps-ing, rechecking which target the tanks on with assist keybinded makes me stay on the concentrated threat boosted add from tank 🙂

    One day I will return to tanking, since I’ve master retadin, partly holyadin….and wanna try out the other final role to understand it more from there prespective!

  8. Uh huh…

    Posts like this do nothing more than give entitled DPS another excuse to act rude.

    There is a reason that Tanks do not care what DPS think or say. Because any Tank that did care was chased out of heroics by gogogogogo, lol 25K HP and plz diaf IRL n00b DPS.

    Tanking in heroics is the only role in which you play against the environment and your own group at the same time.

    1. oh that’s easy.

      on both my pally and dk tank, I regularly gets the “What did I bring you guys here” achievement. #1 dps, damage done and damage taken.

  9. On my ICC geared tank when I do a heroic random, the first thing I ask is “Do we want a speed run and do we want to do optional bosses?” I honestly dont have a problem doing it either way. If i do this, it usually defuses problems before they start. If only one person wants optional bosses or needs to go slow, thats what we do.

    When you reach a certain gear level the speed run, where you pull everything in sight, is the only way to make the instance somewhat challenging. Its you and your group against the clock.

  10. I’ve played a pally tank for quite a while now, from my own choice. I’m perfectly comfortable raiding with a familiar group, but random heroics are an absolute horror. My gear’s quite nice and I consider myself an average all-around tank. Yet heroics give me unimaginable stress.

    I’m very poor at taking abuse from people, even if they’re just faceless avatars I’ll probably never meet again. People in HCs expect me to blaze through mobs like there’s no tomorrow – but I prefer organized, patient pulls. I also feel they judge me for my gear, and give me very high expectations. I got nearly all of it from raiding with a group of friends who know my strengths and weaknesses.

    The comments section here is giving me a little hope that someday, I’ll meet nice and reasonable people in heroics who are willing to trade a few minutes for a more relaxed run.

  11. I have to say that I agree with the comments here and in the main article. I have many tank capable classes but I almost never use them as tank due to the aggro (no pun intended) from PUGs in the LFD.

    However, I just want to say that I’ve also had problems as dps from “I am god” type tanks who will hurl abuse at dps if there is a wipe etc and vote to kick when they are doing fine. Being told to “F*** off this is my group” is terrible when your controlling your dps to not get aggro. Respect does work both ways. In fact I started up characters on a different battle group as the abuse on my present one in PUG hcs was getting so bad.

    While levelling on my dk this new server the randoms have been much better and if you have good tanks and healers PUGs can become sheer poetry in motion. Not well equipped, we take our time… well equipped lets to big rolling pulls and watch the dps go through the roof! If only people would be more polite and patient then everyone would enjoy themselves more. Its nice to be appreciated once in a while!

  12. I agree with the comments here, though maybe I am lucky and have run into LFD abuse rarely on my alts (my main doesn’t run LFD anymore) I have a paladin tank who’s ICC geared and whenever I queue I always say hello to everyone and buff, trying to set a good atmosphere 😀
    But what I wanted to comment is that anytime there’s a heroic with optional bosses I tend to run it skipping them, but if I do see anyone asking to do them, I always say that I am willing to do them but it’s the majority’s vote.

  13. It’s because if the sheer stupidity/impatience of most dps that I prefer tanking as a druid. When I do it on a DK or pally the group never gives you a GCD or two to get your big threat moves out. On the druid you just have two so it’s a lot easier to get out the initial aggro.

    I flat out don’t understand why players in ICC gear still blast out their AOEs the second the tanking starts a pull or even before that. When I DPS on my ICC geared lock I have to give a good three seconds of lead time on most tanks to avoid faceplants and that’s WITH threat reduction talents. Apparently some never learn.

  14. The real problem is one that’s simple to solve. The average WoW player needs to grow up and learn to treat people with respect.

    1. Kanrad, Kanrad…*shakes head* I wish this were true. And it is at times, but then you just get those people that don’t seem to know what the word ‘respect’ means. I really wish you could friend people you group with that are on other servers so you could group with them again. That’s the horrible thing about LFD (one of them): when you find a quality player, you can’t choose to queue with them again.

  15. Anybody else see an irony in DPS who complain about how long it takes to get a random dungeon to pop and then it’s “gogogo” as if they have better places to be? You couldn’t wait to get in, now you can’t wait to get out?

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